A Life Overseas: 40 Years of Teaching the Military
Host Lauren Cardillo sits down with Joe Arden, who spent 40 years with UMGC as a professor and director. Joe recounts his incredible journey from serving as an Army intelligence officer in Vietnam to accepting a traveling teaching position in 1967 that changed his life forever. Taking a massive pay cut to leave a think tank, Joe found his true calling teaching American military personnel across Asia and Europe.
He shares powerful stories of his time in the classroom, including teaching armed soldiers in Vietnam, helping a former Vietnamese faculty member escape as a "boat person," and receiving a life-changing letter from a student nearly 30 years later. Reflecting on his transition to administration and his decision to live in Thailand, Joe proves that doing your best is the key to an unstoppable career.
Episode Information
Joe Arden
I think, like most old people, when they're speaking to someone very young, thinking of themselves when they were the same age, I would simply say that it's very important in whatever role you're in, whatever job you have, whatever course you're taking to try to do the best that you can. And if you try to do the best that you can. Things are more likely to work out well than if you don't try.
Narrator
Welcome to the UMGC podcast Unstoppable Stories with your host, Lauren Cardillo.
Lauren Cardillo
Today we're joined by Joe Arden, who has had an amazing career. Among the things he's done or let's think, worked in a think tank, Army intelligence officer, D1 basketball player, and 40 years with UMGC as both a professor and the director of different divisions here. Welcome, Joe, and thanks so much for joining us on our podcast.
Joe Arden
Thank you very much for inviting me. I look forward.
Lauren Cardillo
So out of all the jobs that you've had or the stops you've made in your career, some of which I just listed, what's been your favorite and why?
Joe Arden
Well, clearly the favorite has been working with, quote, the University of Maryland, which when I joined in 1967, there was only the University of Maryland. There were not the various campuses. And so folks of my generation, even though we're very well aware of UMGC and UMGC, we often refer just to Maryland or University of Maryland. But clearly the Maryland position. The various roles that I helped from 1967 to 2007 remain the highlight of my life in the sense of being extremely rewarding, in that I felt more than felt. I knew that I was engaged in something that was of social and educational value, at a very high level to all of the students involved. And so clearly the, the Maryland UMGC, UMGC experience is the highlight of my life. Professionally speaking, for sure.
Lauren Cardillo
You've told me several times the story of how you got hired. But tell it again, because it's sort of one of those things where you sit down and talk to someone and all of a sudden they change your life with offering you an opportunity you didn't know existed.
Joe Arden
I was in Bangkok, Thailand, which is where I'm speaking to you from as well. I was in Bangkok, Thailand in the 1966 67 period, after having been in the army in Vietnam for somewhat more than a year, 1965 into 1966. I was an Army first lieutenant and then captain in Army intelligence, and when I was discharged from the Army, I accepted a position with a think tank in Thailand that was doing a research project for a combination of the DoD and the government of Thailand. So one day, out of quite the blue, I received a telephone call from the Education Services officer, which meant a civilian position, usually 11 or 12, in the Army Bangkok Education Center. And this Education services officer told me that there was going to be a University of Maryland administrator from Tokyo visiting Bangkok fairly soon. And he asked me, did I think I would be interested in teaching adjunct with the University of Maryland while I was there in Thailand working with the think tank? I said yes, and so he set up an interview, and I had an interview with then area director for Southeast Asia, Doctor Jos, who later became the director of the then Far East Division. And during that interview, a breakfast interview when he was describing the program to me, explain the program, I under the impression that we were speaking of an adjunct position. During the conversation, I found out he indicated that there were a group of faculty who, instead of being stationary in one location Bangkok, Tokyo, Seoul, Okinawa, wherever there were, a group of faculty who traveled around, had different assignments during the different eight week terms, five eight week terms in academic year. And when that was said to me, I started to stop the conversation and said, tell me more about that. He did, and I said, I think I would be quite interested in applying for one of those positions. And he said, fine, gave me the appropriate paperwork. I filled out the paperwork, gave it back to him while he was there, and not the same breakfast meeting, but while he was in Bangkok. And very shortly thereafter, I was contacted from Tokyo and offered a position for academic year 1967 68.
Lauren Cardillo
Had you ever heard of a position like this or a college doing this sort of thing while you were there?
Joe Arden
No, I had not, and it remained something of a mystery how the education services officer really knew I exist. I asked him that, and he said that he was simply informed by. He didn't quite remember that he was there. Someone, a fairly young American, was there with a PhD in the social sciences. And so he got my name and phone number.
Lauren Cardillo
Well, that was fortuitous. I mean.
Joe Arden
It was fortuitous.
Lauren Cardillo
So what was your first salary? Do you remember what it was for that one year of traveling around?
Joe Arden
Yes, I do. It was for $7,500 for the four terms. And then the fifth term was extra pay, I think maybe 1015, maybe 1500. And this was a very, very significant salary cut from me for me, because the the DoD funded think tank paid a very handsome salary around 20, $22,000 a year. But I was very uncomfortable. I'll speak very directly here. I was very uncomfortable in the role, as I had very much disagreed with U.S. policy in Vietnam during the war. While I was in the military, I had very much disagreed with, and yet I found myself after leaving the military, after no longer being an army officer, I found myself directly working on a DoD funded project in Thailand that had implications for the Vietnam War. Although it was not dealing directly with the Vietnam War. I was uncomfortable without any way putting myself on a pedestal. I was uncomfortable, and therefore I didn't hesitate at all about taking a significant salary cut. It was the best professional decision I ever made in my life.
Lauren Cardillo
Did you end up in situations that first year while you were teaching where you're teaching military people? Obviously you're not agreeing with the war. Did that interfere at all with your teaching? Was it something that made you uncomfortable while you were doing that, or no one cared?
Joe Arden
Because no, not at all. Did not make incomparable uncomfortable. My first term was in Korea in September October 1967. I was both at an Army installation and an Air Force installation, teaching at two different installations. My second term was in Vietnam. I volunteered at that time. Assignments to Vietnam were voluntary for the Maryland faculty. Later, 3 or 4 years later, they became required if one cast one's fate. But in the late 60s they were still voluntary, and I volunteered for Vietnam because I certainly felt comfortable to be there. And I certainly was very pleased to be teaching American military who were in the service there. So that was a non-issue for me. And then my third term that year was in Thailand, not in Bangkok, but in a military base south of Bangkok. And then my term for that year was in Taiwan, Taipei, Taiwan, and term five was in northern Japan at an Air Force installation.
Lauren Cardillo
Misawa I know that I have read and you have sent me things of former students talking about how much you influence them or affected them while you were teaching. When those people reach out to you in the past, how did that make you feel? And tell us the story of one in particular, if you can.
Joe Arden
Well, every faculty member, whether in teacher, whether in kindergarten or in postgraduate, would like to think that he or she had some impact, some value, some lasting value, perhaps to their students. But the reality is that most teachers never have a chance to really know with any certainty whether that is the case or not. Now, with regard to the Maryland program on a constant basis, and I think I can speak for many faculty in this regard because the students were older than the typical 18, 19, 20 year old, they were not reluctant to often let you know that they had made, that you had made an impact, that you felt that you had done something of a value for them, that you had given them something of value. I did have this one particularly dramatic instance of realizing with pleasure that I had had a very positive impact in 1996. I was maybe it was 95, 95 or 96, maybe even 94. I was then the director of the European program. And one day in my office in Heidelberg, in the morning mail and envelope with Joe Arden, University of Maryland, the correct APO number personal written on it was delivered to me along with the other mail. And so when I opened it, there was a handwritten short note from a student, a person who began by saying, you will not remember me, Doctor Arden. And he was correct. I did not remember him. He gave me his name, and he told me that he had been in my class in Benoit, Vietnam in 1968 69, the next academic year. The name meant nothing to me. He went on to say that it was a very difficult time for him being in the Air Force, in Vietnam, in Benoit, and that my class and he referred to some of the books that I had assigned to the class. He referred to The Quite American by Graham Greene, a couple of other books that I had assigned, and he said they made a tremendous difference in his entire being while there in Vietnam. So what I did was to take advantage of my director role and contacted the Asian program and said, could you send me the transcript for this man? And they did.
Lauren Cardillo
I like that they still had the transcript from almost.
Joe Arden
They did. They had the transcript, a hard copy copy they sent me. And instead of being an ace student in the class, he had received a C, he had earned a C.
Lauren Cardillo
But you still made an impact even though he got a C.
Joe Arden
He went on to explain that he had had a very successful business professional career in California, and he very much had, as we found out more about him in the next year or so. And finally he was featured a year or two later in one of the UC alumni magazines because he had had a very successful career. Yeah, that was an unusually poignant moment in the sense of opening the envelope or reading this hand printed message of someone who had been in my literally 28, 29, 30 years earlier. So yeah, that was a good feeling. Thank you for asking.
Lauren Cardillo
That's amazing. You were the the only really university out there teaching military. How did UMGC, UMGC, UMD end up in that position where what you were doing was very unique.
Joe Arden
As you will know, the European program began with the University of Maryland in 1949 50. And because of the success of the program in Europe, when a few years later in the mid 1950s, University of California, Berkeley, which had begun a program in Asia and the Pacific through the US government, through the US military in 52 or 53, UC Berkeley wanted to pull out and they did pull out. And because of the success of the Maryland program in Europe since 1949, the Pentagon, through the Pacific Command contacted Ray Aaron's Burger, who was then the senior administrator with Maryland, the famous flying Dean, and ask him, would Marilyn like to extend its program to Asia and replace UC Berkeley? And have they both European program and an Asian program? And Erinsborough certainly had no problem in saying yes. And so in 1956 57, the then Far East Division of the University of Maryland began offering classes.
Lauren Cardillo
Why was it that Maryland succeeded? And what was what was the drive? Why did a university think it was important to teach military students?
Joe Arden
I think the only answer is there that Ray Erinsborough and his close associate sidekick standards were simply unusually perspicacious going back to 1949 when they were together there in College Park. The Pentagon did approach several major American universities there on the East Coast in the greater Maryland, D.C., Virginia area. They approached several universities about starting the program, a program in Europe, and the only one of the universities in this very different world. When the concept of adults going to school was odd and strange, when going to school on military bases was strange, and when going to school overseas on military bases was bizarre. Erinsborough and were the only university through Maryland to say yes. And so that led to the Maryland program beginning in Europe in 1949 and moving on to Asia in 1956.
Lauren Cardillo
What do you think their motivation was, if you ever had that conversation with them? Because, as you just said, it was very odd.
Joe Arden
I think there the answer has to be and the personality and character and interest of Ray burger, a bigger than life personality once featured in Reader's Digest. Unforgettable characters a person filled with four letter words. A person filled with jokes that were not supposed to be told in polite company. A person whose personality allowed him to be on a first name basis with every senior general, from Tokyo to Heidelberg to the Pentagon. And I think simply the concept appealed to him greatly. Aarons. Berger's own background was that he had been in Russia, been in the Soviet Union during the mid 1930s, not for a full academic year, but he had gone there to study psychology, allegedly with Pavlov. Whether that's the really the case or not, I'm not quite sure. But he was in the Soviet Union, and he was the sort of person who would have been willing to go there in the mid 1930s. And it certainly wasn't because he was the left winger and interested in socialism. Quite the contrary, quite the contrary. So I think simply the concept of having these programs around the world in all these different places appealed to him in a very visceral manner, and he was an ideal person for the role. Had he come along 25, 30 years later, he would have been a disaster. All of the things that made him be so successful would have been taboo in a bit of a later period.
Lauren Cardillo
What appealed to you because you had gone to a traditional university for years? What was it about the job that appealed to you that said, I can help military people get a college education.
Joe Arden
Beyond any question? It was a combination of what you just said, heightened by a very strong fascination since my adolescent days in West Texas, being fascinated with faraway places, with strange sounding names. And that appealed to me tremendously. I had done a fair bit of travel even before being in the military in Vietnam. I had spent a year in graduate school at Victoria University in New Zealand. I had done that for one year and following that year, to illustrate, when I say I had a fair bit of international travel experience for someone that young, I had taken a ship from Wellington, New Zealand to Sydney, and I got off the ship in Sydney. It was a Dutch ship, took the train across to Perth, where I picked the ship back up, and then the ship continued on to Singapore, which was my first Asian city. And I still remember clearly everything about that initial 24 hours in Singapore. And I got off the ship in Colombo, and then a day or two later took a plane to then Madras in southern India, now Chennai in southern India. And that was in mid-October 1962. I had gone to New Zealand in January 1962. The way to summarize what happened from there is to say that on Christmas Eve, December 24th, 1962, two and a half months later, after traveling overland by train and bus, I arrived in London. And so I had traveled throughout India all the way up to Kashmir and Ladakh, into Pakistan, into Iran, into Iraq, through the Middle East, Israel, Jerusalem before the sixth, before the Six-Day War, and 67 into Jordan and Syria, Turkey, and finally into Western Europe. And so that was the trip that sealed my fate with regard to international travel and being interested in being overseas in a world of faraway places and strange sounding names. And I had almost no money. I was traveling very cheap, and so I had massive culture shock and lots of different places. But it was an extremely and incalculably valuable experience.
Lauren Cardillo
Once again, you're listening to Joe Arden on Unstoppable Stories. If you want to hear more stories like this. Don't forget to like or subscribe on your favorite podcast channel. So, Joe, let's jump back to what you just said. You're at this point like 20 something. You've traveled all over the world, and the opportunity comes up to go to UMGC Europe. At some point after you start work, did you want to go to Europe after you loved Asia?
Joe Arden
Yes, I had had three years, 67, 68, 68, 69, 69, seven as a faculty member in Asia. And so the opportunity or the possibility of spending another year and at that time, most overseas faculty were limited to four years. I say that with some hesitation because it was not always closely administered. But I did want to spend time in Europe. And so I applied for a transfer to Europe and the transfer was approved. And so I went to Europe. And for 70, 71, I was a faculty member in Europe. I was term one in Turkey, I was term two and three in Naples, Italy, and term four and five. I was at different locations in Germany. And to illustrate my life in those four years as a faculty member, three in Asia, one in Europe, five terms a year. So that was 20 terms, 20 terms. I made 19 moves, the only time I ever had consecutive assignments in the same geographic location was in 69, 70, term two and three of that year, I was in Naples, Italy. That was the only time that I was in the same location for two consecutive terms. And I loved that. That was marvelous. I, I was very happy with that.
Lauren Cardillo
And I'm sure you learned how to travel light and how to adapt and all those things that are great skills. What encouraged you, finally, to jump from teaching and moving around to becoming, you know, administration and staying with UMGC? Because I'm guessing you could have gone other places?
Joe Arden
Well, I think there are. I owe a. Tremendous loud and prolonged and direct thanks to Benjamin Massie, who was certainly during my years as an administrator with Maryland. The first 30 of my years as an administrator was both my boss and my mentor, and over the years, good friend. I had met Ben in 1969, in Europe, excuse me, in Asia, when he transferred from Europe to Tokyo to be the director of the Asian program, the Far East Division. He had been two years in Asia 6970, 7071. He transferred back to Europe as director, and the idea of being an administrator had not occurred to me, which is very strange given how I loved the job for these next 30 some odd years, but did not occur to me. And so I visited him and late July 1971, just to congratulate him on coming to Europe. As I was about to leave the building, not during the meeting with him, there was a message at the door as one walked out of the office in Heidelberg. Ben, Doctor Massey would like to see you. So I went back to see him. That was in late July 1971, and he then brought up and he said he explained that there were two administrators leaving. One was the area director for what was called Benelux, Mideast, North Africa, and the other was the coordinator for the government and history department, sort of the chair. And he said, I have the the idea of combining these two roles into one position and would like to offer you the job. I was quite dumbfounded. I had merely never imagined that. And so I said, well, let me have the weekend. It was a Friday. Let me have the weekend to think about this. And I did think about it over the weekend, contacted him on the Monday, spoke to 2 or 3 of my friends, and on Monday I told him I would like very much to do that. I said I have, however, with another faculty member whom he knew. I said I really have had a longstanding commitment to do a road trip, a car trip through northern Germany, Denmark and into Norway. I really would prefer, I would hope I could do that trip. I would be it'd be about a ten day trip. And he said, yes, you can do the trip. And so I did the trip and came back and took over that dual job in early August 1971, and just was very lucky to have had that offer made to me, and feel highly fortunate that Ben Massey was there to be a mentor and to be a boss and to be the fine person and good friend that he was.
Lauren Cardillo
So what was it about the, I guess, 34 years, 35 years in administration that that you loved? What was it about the job?
Joe Arden
I loved it for. The reasons that would really not be so possible in today's world. I loved it because of the fact that one had a great deal of authority. To put it very directly, one had a lot of authority, and one could make decisions that were very real decisions about affecting their lives, their world, the students world, the education centers world. One had the authority to make decisions that had an impact. You knew the effect of your decision quite quickly, quite quickly. And the reality was also that because the overseas programs were a long way from College Park, so the overseas programs of that era had far greater autonomy to be very direct than the overseas programs do today. And I don't in any way, in any way make that observation in a negative sense toward today's, GC quite the contrary. There are great advantages in the system that now exists played. It played to the things I could do well and minimize the many things that I don't do well.
Lauren Cardillo
I hear you, and I understand you. Yeah. When you would tell people and I'm sure still today, that there were faculty who moved around from different military bases and teach students, or today stay on military bases and teach students what what were people's reaction? I mean, I didn't know about it until I started working here.
Joe Arden
Yeah, certainly. People always were interested. Almost always. They had never heard of the concept. One reaction often was, well, but weren't you teaching on military base? It's what about academic freedom? This was never an issue in any in any way at all. For example, when I was teaching, I taught quote subjects like American government, American foreign policy, Asian politics, those sort of subjects, and never was there any sense at all that I would be restricted in any untoward manner with regard to expressing a view, or for students expressing a view, and some of the memoirs that in the Overseas Maryland Association memoir bring that out a faculty emphasizing that aspect of the program. So this was a very rewarding thing that often surprised people who didn't know very much about and the military or didn't understand the military. The fact that I'd been in the Army was an advantage. There's no question about that, in the sense of teaching military students. That meant that I, I was able more easily to relate to their world. That played to my advantage as a faculty member. And it played to my certainly to my advantage as an administrator, working with the military over these decades in Asia and Europe.
Lauren Cardillo
This year is the 70th anniversary of Asia. Yes. What kind of milestone is that? I mean, does that surprise you? That's a really long time. Not as much as UMGC Europe, but I think people sometimes forget about Asia. And 70 years is pretty phenomenal.
Joe Arden
Seven years is a long while. I was invited by UMGC to be in Germany for the 70th anniversary of the European program, and I cannot say that I'm surprised that Marilyn would have been there in Europe or now, well, more than 70 years and now in Asia for 70 years, because the foundations of the programs were so strong.
Lauren Cardillo
You have now stayed in Asia and have not come back to the States. I mean, you come here for visits, but what for you? What's the appeal of Asia? Why? Why are you still there?
Joe Arden
I suppose a part of it is simply that I haven't lived in America, Lauren, in the sense of living in America since early 1965, before the Army sent me to sent me to Vietnam. And so being overseas, living overseas is not something when I, when I was no longer with Maryland, which was 2007 and has now been 19 years, it was not something returning to the States to live, since already I had been 40 years was not something that really entered my mind. Rather, the question was where would I want to settle overseas? That was that was the real question, where would I want to be overseas? And it was fairly easy to to decide on Bangkok. It was a fairly easy to settle on Bangkok because I had had very always good experiences in Thailand. My first trip to Thailand, which I remember very clearly, I was in the army. I was a captain in Vietnam at that time, and I had an assignment that meant that I needed to go to Thailand in the Army intelligence job and go to Thailand and go up to Laos of being Thailand for a week or ten days. I had a very safe and comfortable job in the Army. No great James Bond stories. Unfortunately, my life was not in constant danger. I had a weapon assigned to me. I never fired it except in practice. I'm quite sure no one ever shot at me. Jordan as an individual, 4 or 5 times I was in the area where there was general shooting, but not but not at me as an individual. I had an apartment in Saigon. I had a motorcycle. It was my introduction to French food and French wine. I had a very nice Vietnamese girlfriend. My life was not uncomfortable by any means. However, there was a never ending sense of danger in Vietnam. There was a curfew from many places, including hotels, that I was in in Saigon. There you saw shooting at night, every night there was a never ending sense of potential danger. And the Vietnamese understandably 1965, they had already had 25 years of war, beginning in 1940 with what they called the Japanese war, then continuing after World War two with what they call the French War, and then finally what they call the American War. So they had become somewhat hardened as a people. They had to in order to survive. Whereas coming into Thailand, there was no war, there was no curfew. People today who come to Thailand after these hundreds of millions of tourists in the last 60 years, speak of how soft the Thai people are 60 years ago, all the more so. So plus I already I actually still new people from Thailand, from all those years ago that I had maintained contact with. So it was a very easy decision for me to decide to settle in Thailand.
Lauren Cardillo
There was some song that was played that would tell people they needed to evacuate and that there was some UMG. See. Well, actually UMD sign. Tell us a little about that sort of period and how UMD was actually very involved in it.
Joe Arden
Yes, that was in the spring of 1975, April, late April. And indeed, there was a time magazine story that mentions this, which we use, we being the Maryland teams that were writing the proposals to try to win the next contract. We used to illustrate to the military that we, Maryland, will always be there for you, wherever you are, that, as has been noted in a couple of movies as well, not the movies. Didn't mention Maryland, but there was a song that was played on AFN Armed Forces Network, or maybe it was found the Forest Network that was to signal all Americans together at different assembly points in order to evacuate Saigon. And we had a number of classes going on in Saigon at that time. I was not director in April 75th of the Asian program. I was still in Europe. I transferred in August 75th back to Asia. I was the director who dealt with the incomplete in the class. There were a number of incomplete in the different classes, and I dealt with those incomplete and a very poignant story, if you'll allow me, about three years later, 72 years, 77, 78, a postcard arrived in Kota. Maybe we went to the embassy to pick up the postcard. I don't remember that, but the postcard with a Malaysian stamp and the postcard was just written to University of Maryland, American Embassy, Tokyo. So either somehow they delivered it out to your Kota, or maybe we went down to pick it up. The writer of the postcard gave his name, which was a Vietnamese name, and explained that he had been a faculty member teaching mathematics in that last term, the term of the spring of 75, and that he was one of the boat people, and he had gotten his family out of Vietnam with the boat people to Malaysia and was asking, could Maryland do anything to help him and his family in Malaysia on one of the camps? So of course, I looked up his file and he had done a masters. I forgot either you at UCLA or USC in math and it taught 3 or 4 courses with us. So naturally enough with zero problem. As you can imagine, we distributed that information to the staff and to faculty, and we raise money. And we got on the phone with the camp and through the embassy in Kuala Lumpur and in Tokyo, and we were able to assist him in his family getting to Southern California.
Lauren Cardillo
I doubt that there's a college story like that today.
Joe Arden
You know, one doubt went down.
Lauren Cardillo
I mean, because, you know, it would would have to go up the food chain and you'd have to figure out how to do it and, you know, and just made it happen. So I have two last questions for you. One is when you talked about being in teaching in Vietnam, there were things starting to sort of rumble, but you never had like soldiers who went off to do something, who didn't come back in classes? Yes.
Joe Arden
Not in my classes, no. Individually in my class? No. Certainly at several of the locations I taught in Vietnam, students in the class did come into the class, typically always in their fatigues, but quite a few occasions came in the class carrying their rifle because they'd been out on doing something in the field that day. But no, never did I have a student not come back? No.
Lauren Cardillo
Because I would imagine that would be devastating for anybody.
Joe Arden
You know.
Lauren Cardillo
Of course, faculty. So my last question is if if you could look at that, you know, kid in West Texas and that kid saw you, what your life had become, what would you say to that kid in West Texas? How did things how did things work out?
Joe Arden
I think like most old people, when they're speaking to someone very young, thinking of themselves when they were the same age, I would simply say that it's very important in whatever role you're in, whatever job you have, whatever course you're taking to try to do the best that you can. And if you try to do the best that you can, it's things are more likely to work out well than if you don't try.
Lauren Cardillo
And so for you, it what started as an appointment to have breakfast turned into a career, a lifelong passion.
Joe Arden
And I still walk past the hotel where I met for breakfast at least once a week. The hotel has been renovated many times, of course, but rather amazingly. The breakfast area, which is also quite new, is in the same format that it was.
Lauren Cardillo
Are they serving the same food? That's really.
Joe Arden
That I don't know.
Lauren Cardillo
Well, Joe, thank you so much for spending time with us today. I really appreciate it. I think this is a great podcast for people to watch, to learn how really UMGC has been an unstoppable story. And then your work with UMGC as well. So thank you.
Joe Arden
I assure you, Lauren, entirely my pleasure.
Lauren Cardillo
Thank you. Thank you so for everyone listening and watching. Please remember to like and subscribe. If you want to see more unstoppable stories. You can even catch up on older episodes from previous years by going to your preferred podcast channel. We will see you next time. And thanks again, Joe.
Joe Arden
Thank you.